Melissa Giraud, EmbraceRace: Hi, everyone. Thanks for being here. We're so excited for this webinar. I'm Melissa Giraud, a co-founder, uh, co-director of Embrace Race.
Andrew Grant-Thomas, EmbraceRace: And I'm Andrew Grant-Thomas. I'm the other founder and co-director.
Melissa Giraud, EmbraceRace: And we're really excited to have our amazing guest on to present and to engage with your questions.
First, please know that we are in the middle of a fundraising campaign. As many of you on the call know, any work related to race has been devastated in these past couple years, and that includes us. So we're hoping to stay open and make our resources and conversations freely accessible. Consider that with any organizations or consultants or anyone doing race work. This is the time to support them. We need all of them.
Andrew Grant-Thomas, EmbraceRace: Brigitte, so good to see you. I'm gonna tell you a little about Brigitte. We've had Brigitte as a guest and have collaborated with Brigitte a number of times. She's amazing … not only as a researcher, absolutely top-flight researcher in this space, and as a human being. And she has a real gift which you will get the benefit of today, a real gift for communicating so effectively about this work and about the research.
So Brigitte, we are really glad to have you join us today.
Brigitte Vittrup: I'm super excited to be here. I absolutely love the work that you all are doing and have been doing for 10-plus years. So- ... yeah, it's great.
Melissa Giraud, EmbraceRace: We couldn't do it without you. And so Brigitte's gonna share with us for about half an hour, and then we'll turn to your questions.
Andrew Grant-Thomas, EmbraceRace: Let me take a moment to say a few words about that in case you doubt her credentials for speaking to this topic.
Doubt no more, because Dr. Brigitte Vittrup is the dean of the College of Professional Education and a professor of child development at Texas Women's University. She holds a PhD in developmental psychology from the University of Texas at Austin, and her research focuses on parent socialization practices, the racial socialization of children, and external influences on children's racial attitudes.
Her research has been featured in academic journals as well as major news outlets, including The Washington Post, Newsweek, and NPR, and she has presented her research findings to a wide range of audiences, including other researchers, parents, attorneys, and early childhood professionals. Most importantly, she is an EmbraceRacer at heart.
Brigitte Vittrup: All right. Hopefully everybody can see this. So I was invited to talk about this, and this is based on some of the research that I've done, a lot of conversations that I've had, especially with parents, but also with some teachers that at times we really think we're talking about race because we intend to be talking about race e- especially with children, but sometimes those messages might not actually be received as such.
And so some of the things what we do know [00:04:00] is that race-based attitudes really show up as early as preschool. A lot of research has shown strong in-group favoritism among white children and also even among Black and Hispanic children showing preferences for higher status groups in early childhood.
And so what we also know is that children with at least one close friend of a different race does -- they do tend to show more positive racial attitudes. But part of the issue is that a lot of children live in very homogenous neighborhoods, so they don't often get exposed to people that look differently from them.
And so one of the studies that I did was with children ages five to eight and showing both their expressed versus their behavioral attitudes. And really what we found is that children this age are already starting to recognize that it's not socially acceptable to be [00:05:00] expressing negative racial attitudes.
And so even... So again, they were five to eight years old. And so when they were assessed on racial attitudes in terms of what they're expressing verbally there really wasn't any difference in their preferences for other children of different racial groups. However, when we looked at their behavioral attitudes, so they were asked they were given pictures of other children of different skin tones, and then they were asked, "Who would you like to sit with at lunch?"
And they had to pick three people or three friends. And then they also had to pick three friends to invite over to a sleepover. And what we found is that they overwhelmingly selected white children. And actually, this happened significantly for the white children, but we also saw that Black and Hispanic children tended to favor the white children as well.
So again, along with the [00:06:00] research showing that there was this preference for higher status groups, that they're already paying attention to this. We do see that it changes when they get older, but already at this early school age that they're showing these behavioral preferences that indicate some kind of bias And so looking at just what children are exposed to, they're exposed to so many messages about about race and about culture, and this might be from parents, from teachers, peers, media.
A lot of media shows stereotyped and biased portrayals. And then they also look around, and they see the social division, the inequality. They see that a lot of doctors and principals, superintendents, presidents these... the, the occupations of power tend to be oftentimes White people, especially White men.
They see how neighborhoods are divided. And so [00:07:00] it sends a message to them. Again, many of these messages being biased. And then on top of that, many neighborhoods have, and schools have low diversity, so children have limited opportunities for cross-racial interactions. Especially if you look at where White children live and go to school, a lot of them live in a very homogenous neighborhood with very little exposure to to other racial groups.
And so in order to intercept these biased messages, we h- have the obligation to have intentional conversations, as well as intentional modeling and exposure. And in other presentations I've done, I've come up with this model of racial socialization messages that really show on the outside of the circle all of these messages that children are being bombarded with from very early on whether it's from peers, whether it's from the social division that they're seeing in their neighborhoods, the messages [00:08:00] that they get through the media and then obviously from the parents as well.
But I put a circle around it because parents do have an opportunity to buffer some of these outside messages through these intentional conversations. We can't possibly put them in a bubble and not have them exposed to all of these messages from society, from the media. They're gonna happen, but we do have an opportunity, especially through intentional conversations, to intercept some of these biased messages.
And so what we also know is that these direct conversations about race actually can be very impactful. Research shows that white children who have these conversations with adults tend to have more positive racial attitudes towards out-group members. And children of color who have these conversations with adults show more positive psychological outcomes psychological well-being, and also more positive academic outcomes.
But the problem is that a lot [00:09:00] of adults are silent about race, especially among white people. And part of it is that they are uncomfortable talking about race. That is one thing that I've found in my research, just really discomfort even if they want to talk about it, that there is dis- discomfort because again, this what, what permeates through society that we should be color blind.
And so a lot of adults have grown up kind of being raised in this, quote unquote, "color blind environment." They're not used to talking about it. So they don't feel comfortable talking about it. And so many adults use color blind language even when they intend to be talking about race. And so if we look at parents' approach to racial socialization in my research and in, in other research we find that most parents when asked will say that, yes, they do think it's important to talk about race and race-related issues.
About 70 [00:10:00] to 80% of parents are reporting this. And most actually also say they're talking about race because they think they're talking about race. Anywhere from 50 to 65%, depending on the studies that have been done. But when we go in and then code the responses ... So in my research, what I have asked is, "Okay, give me an example of what you talk about," or, "Give me an example of a specific conversation you've had."
Then what happens is that parents either can't recall a conversation, and that could be because there hasn't been a conversation in the last two years maybe or it was just very vague. And so when we go in and code it, it's somewhere around 25 to 30%, depending on the study that actually are having these, what we label as color conscious messages, that they actually are talking in meaningful ways about race and race-related issues, whereas about 65 to 70% of the [00:11:00] people who say they're t- having conversations about race actually are using colorblind language that really does not send a message to children about race.
And so some of the common statements that I have found in my research when people will talk about what they say or even just conversations I've had with people and they will tell me what they say and oftentimes what comes up is, "It doesn't matter what people look like. We're all the same on the inside.
We're all different, and we need to be treated with respect. The way someone looks or speaks doesn't make them better or worse than us. We all need to be kind to others, and we have to accept everyone for who they are." Now, these are all very well-intended messages and they're positive messages that, yes, it shouldn't matter what somebody looks like, and we should all be treated with respect even if we look different, and we need to be kind to others.
These are all very positive messages, but they're not really messages that [00:12:00] say anything meaningful about race, and children don't perceive it as if their parents are talking to them about race. Oh, and God loves everyone. That's another one that comes up a lot. And then there are those types of conversations that I consider missed opportunities, where the parents might be willing to have the conversations, but they might be either waiting for a child to bring it up or there were opportunities to have a more in-depth conversation but it didn't happen.
One parent had said my child said another child was making comments about someone else's skin color. I said that all people are equal, skin color makes no difference. God created everyone, and it would be boring if we were all the same color." This parent is engaging the child in the conversation.
They're not shying away from the conversation, but it becomes... it's more or less a colorblind message that, that doesn't really get [00:13:00] to the, the opportunities that are there to really talk about the differences and the skin color and how we treat other people and making it a more in-depth conversation.
And I will have some examples of conversations that you could have to bring it a little bit further than this. I've also had several parents say something like this: "In the US, some races weren't allowed to have access to some things long ago," so they're talking about it from a historical perspective, "but we know better now."
And yes, we don't have separate drinking fountains and separate restrooms but there are still obviously a lot of issues surrounding race and the way people are treated today. This type of statement although acknowledging history almost seems to say it's no longer an issue, which we know that it is.
And a- another one similarly, "We need to teach them about the past, but clearly remark [00:14:00] that everything is different nowadays and we cannot hate anyone because of the past." And yes, this last piece, we cannot hate anyone because of the past, but there's still not that conversation about... because they say everything is different nowadays.
It might be different from a long time ago, but we still have issues that are based on the history that we still haven't come we still haven't come far enough. So what are some things that we can do or we can say? So this is a question that I also get a lot when I've had some of my speaking engagements, and people are saying, "I want to talk about it.
I just don't know. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. My parents didn't talk about it when I was growing up." And one thing that I will say is you have to make sure that you prepare yourself for the conversation especially if you are a White person to really do your [00:15:00] homework, which I have another slide with a couple of suggestions.
That you really have to research the issues. You have to examine your own biases and be willing to examine those biases because we all have them. We are all products of our environment. We all have biases based on what we have been exposed to or not exposed to in the media, in our environments, the experiences that we have had.
And then really ask yourself how comfortable are you with the topic of race because a lot of people are not very comfortable. Especially White people tend to be less comfortable than if we ask people of color. But I still see in some of the research that even people of color will ex- express discomfort for various reasons, sometimes for different reasons than why White people are uncomfortable with it, but there still is some discomfort with it.
But by preparing yourself and getting used to having these conversations, you will over time become more comfortable with it. And then [00:16:00] also examine your child's exposures. How diverse are the books and images in your home? If you're a teacher look around the classroom in terms of the images in the classroom the materials in the classroom.
What is the child exposed to via the media? And then how diverse is the neighborhood? How diverse is the child's school? And the less diversity there is, the even more important it is to have some of these conversations. And so in doing the homework you really have to be willing to be a little bit uncomfortable because that's the only way we can move forward and start getting used to having these conversations.
And then really research the issues from multiple perspectives so that you aren't too naïve about really what the issues are, especially for people of color in this country. And then again examining your own biases. And a, a couple of starters, and these are just some, some su- suggestions.
There are many [00:17:00] others out there. These are some that that I have found that- To be very helpful and very informative. So the first one, So You Want to Talk About Race it's a, popular press book. It's a New York Times bestseller. It really breaks everything down. It has just lots of great information about having conversations and starting with that.
And then on the other hand, the Racism Without Racists by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, that is a more academic book. But it really talks about how racism continues to exist even when a lot of people consider themselves not to be racist. And even if you proclaim not to be racist, you might still be perpetuating some of the racism that is existing.
And it also looks at kind of the, the history and the persistence of racial inequality. And so those are just very great starters. There are others out there, but I highly recommend them in terms of doing [00:18:00] that homework And so an, an important part of conversation guidance. One thing that I hear from a lot of parents that say, "No, we're willing to have the conversation and if my child brings it up, then we will talk about it."
The problem is that children learn very early on that this is not really something that people talk about. They notice that. And so they may not necessarily bring up the questions, and sometimes if they bring up the questions, they might be silenced with the questions that they're asking "Shh, don't talk about that."
So if you wait for your child to bring it up, then the conversation may never happen. So it, it is important to still start these conversations, and start them early on. And it's also, even if you haven't started, like I mean you can talk to a three-year-old, but if your child is 11, it's not too late.
It's never too late to start, just as long as, as you do start. You can ask the kids what they [00:19:00] know. I recommend asking open-ended questions because that can really you start to have a more engaged conversation. And then be honest and be factual, even when it might be uncomfortable. It's important to present the information in a developmentally appropriate manner.
Obviously, the conversation you have with a five-year-old looks very different than the information you share with a 15-year-old, just because of their cognitive development and what they're able to understand. But even young kids understand concepts of fairness and being nice to others. And older children will start to understand more complex information about stereotypes and prejudice and discrimination.
And then leave space for feelings, because this can be a very emotional topic. And so leaving space, especially for children of color that are, they're having these experiences, and [00:20:00] sometimes even at a young age they have already sensed that they might be treated differently or things have been said.
And so it's important to have those conversations also for their own mental health and wellbeing and their confidence and belief in themselves. And then really to remember this is not a one-time conversation. This is not to prepare you to sit down and have the race talk and then we're done.
This really is something that needs to go on a continuing basis, and which is a good thing because i- if you continue talking about it, you will be more comfortable, and then the child will begin to engage you in conversations themselves. So some of the conversation prompts that I will give people, and I also have some more specific just examples of conversations.
But for younger children, really you could state the facts, that some people don't like certain groups, or they think that certain groups are a certain way or certain people are [00:21:00] being treated differently because of, Certain reasons depending on the group. And then really engaging the child in the conversation, "What do you think about that?
What would you do, or what would you say if you saw that or if you heard that?" To really prepare them f- to think more about that, and also to open up for, to where you really can either speak up for yourself if this is something that's being done against you, or being an ally if you see it done to somebody else.
And then for older children, you can even bring in, have you seen or heard about certain news, events, experiences at school? Do you know somebody who has experienced this or somebody who has done something like this to another person? What have people told you about this? And then engage them in conversations.
What do you think about it? What would you say or do? Why do you think that happened? Or why do you think this is [00:22:00] happening? So that gets them into really thinking more about kind of the ongoing issues. And then what can we do a- about this? And engage them in really some agency around this, around these topics.
And so some conversation examples that you can have. And so for younger kids, for example, it's normal to notice race or skin color and differences between people. So the one example that I gave you earlier where a parent said that her child had mentioned somebody of a different skin color and then the parent took it in a more color blind way.
But you could really engage in this conversation. What is it that maybe makes us different? What makes us similar? To where they understand that this is an ok- this is not a taboo conversation because really, like noticing race or skin color, that's a part of who somebody is and we can start learning about them.
And it can be difficult sometimes to just sit down and [00:23:00] "Let's start talking about race." And so oftentimes books and videos can be really good starting points. You could start with a book or a video with diverse characters. I just put pictures of a couple of them. The one at the top, All the Colors that We Are, the story of how we got our skin color I used that a lot with my kids when they were little.
We had lots of very engaging conversations. And it could be other books as well. Look at the children in the story. They all have beautiful shades of skin. How would you describe their skin? How would you describe yours? My kids did a lot of, let's all put our our hands in a circle and talk about the different skin color.
So my husband is Black, and my kids are biracial, and so they would look at the different skin tones that we had, and had lots of vivid conversations about that. And then you can even ask, "Do you know why the skin colors are different?" And that's why I like the book at the top, All the Colors that We Are, because it actually it [00:24:00] talks about melanin and the biology of skin color, and it talks about melanin as some people's skin are more busy than others.
And my kids had lots of conversations about that. And so these can b- be really helpful. And then even asking, "What can you tell about a person just by looking at their skin?" Which really is you can't tell if somebody's a good or bad person based on their skin color. How can you find out if somebody would be a good friend or not?
And really get them to start thinking about sometimes we judge other people based on their skin color and how can we avoid that, and how can we really get to know somebody and not judge them based on that? You can talk to them sometimes people are treated better because of the color of their skin.
Sometimes people are treated worse. You can give very specific examples. What do you think about that? What can we do to make sure we don't do that? And what can we say or do if it [00:25:00] happens to us can be an, an important conversation example as well Sometimes people make bad choices towards people in certain groups, and you could be specific about this as well.
They may treat people badly. They don't want to be friends with them because of their skin color. You can ask, "Has that ever happened to you? How did it make you feel?" Again, making space for these feelings to really talk through it. "What if somebody did that to you? How would that make you feel? And what could you say or do if you saw that happen to somebody else, or if it happened to you?"
Really engaging them in those conversations. Another book that I really like is this one, Shades of People. It's just some great pictures of kids with different skin tones. And so you could start with a book. You could also use a video with these diverse characters. You could ask a question.
For example, "Which of these children would you want to be friends with? Who [00:26:00] might want to be your best friend?" And then a- ask them why. And this is where you can even get into a conversation of if they chose a child as the same, that was the same skin color or race as themselves to even ask if they noticed that.
And not to make them feel bad about it but just continue with the conversation that sometimes we, we tend to go sit next to somebody that looks like us, or we tend to choose friends that look like us. But again, we can't really tell whether or not somebody would be a good friend or a good person based on their skin color.
What are other ways that we can find out about that? And that can really lead to a conversation about, biases but also how these biases, they are these little thoughts in our head that are based on our experiences. But really sometimes what we want to do is, we can stop and think and, use age-appropriate explanations of bias.
But stop and think. If you suddenly notice that you [00:27:00] tend to always go play with other friends that are, that look like you. A- and again, because of the lack of diversity in many neighborhoods and schools, sometimes that might not even be an option. But even just to stop and think and then you can start saying, "Okay.
How might we know if a person is a good person or a bad person? How can we know? We can start talking to them," and, what makes a good friend. And so notice any kind of negative perceptions we might have of others n- but recognizing that this could just be based on our experiences and what we've seen in the media.
It's not to make people feel bad about it, but really just to also be aware of it. It's also important to, if you are talking about ex- historical examples, to bridge these historical examples with the modern-day racism and discrimination and inequality. So you could start with the ex- historical [00:28:00] example, and then say, "Unfortunately, there is still racism and discrimination that's happening today.
Can you think of examples of that? Why do you think this is still happening?" Because again, this whole concept that we know better now in some areas, yes, but in other areas, no. There, there's this... The tangled web activity is a neat way of doing it with, especially with younger kids, where you can take some yarn, and you can ball it up, and maybe tie knots, and this could be around people's hands, or you could even do it y- you could have people hold yarns and walk around.
You could have the kids walk around in a circle and get it all messed up. And then we have to try to untangle it, and that can be really difficult because this is years of, the discrimination that was happening and the inequality. And so it really has become so embedded sometimes in our society that it could be really hard to untangle it.
It could be really hard. Even when you start to untie some knots, there are still so [00:29:00] many other knots. And then you are untying some knots, you may accidentally end up creating other knots because new knots come up. And so that can be another way of also talking about it with younger children or even with older children as well.
And then addressing racial profiling. Black men are sometimes more likely to be pulled over for traffic violations or watched or followed by the loss prevention team at a store because they think they might steal. Why do you think that is? How do you feel about that? What can we do about it?
These are real conversations that you can have that that go beyond just, let's just be nice to, to everybody. Some conversation helpers I always recommend using books. Find books with diverse characters and direct messages. Ask about the characters and their experiences in the book.
That's how... So even if the book itself [00:30:00] is not very explicit in terms of conversations about race, you can start talking about the characters, talk about their experiences. And you can be direct about race and ethnicity and cultural backgrounds. You can talk about fairness, you can talk about equality, you can talk about bias.
Depending on the, the age of the child, do it in a age appropriate manner. You can use videos, movies, TV shows, and try to select those that have diverse casts and positive interracial interactions. It's somewhat easier these days to find that for really young kids because there has been an effort to have more diverse TV shows and videos.
I would recommend screening it first and be mindful of very stereotyped portrayals. Although, even for older kids, you could actually use those stereotype portrayals as teachable moments and talk about how this is a stereotype, and talk about how it influences us when we're [00:31:00] constantly exposed to these stereotyped portrayals about, the people in power are usually white people, oftentimes white men, whereas, the criminals are oftentimes portrayed as people of color, and that having these conversations.
And then even for the videos and the TV shows, don't just watch it, but actually discuss the characters and discuss the experiences that they might be having News stories can be really helpful, especially for older children. You can watch the news together, you can select stories to, to discuss.
And older children are exposed to a lot. They might not be watching the traditional, 6:00 or 10:00 news. They get so much from either YouTube or TikTok. I think my son, the way every- all the information that he received about George Floyd's murder was from YouTube, and there were all these videos.
And we had a lot of very in-depth conversations about it because he really was [00:32:00] exposed to all of this. You can discuss the content, you can discuss the context. You can even discuss when they're older, how the story is told and how the people are portrayed, and does that perhaps lead to some, like the certain angle with which the story is told, and how does that influence us?
So that leads to also more critical thinking about that. And so just, some takeaways to remember. You are not always gonna get it right. I've been talking about race and race-related issues for decades, and I don't always get it right. But that's okay because it is not a one-time conversation.
These are conversations we have to keep having. The more conversations you have, the more comfortable you will be. The more conversations you have, the more your children will engage in and initiate conversations. And then these, having more [00:33:00] conversations is gonna lead to more awareness, and more awareness is, over time, and hopefully lead to more progress because we are spreading awareness, and we're having these conversations.
I am going to stop sharing my screen now. That was a lot of information. But just some suggestions, and these are just a few suggestions that I had in terms of conversations that you can actually have that are real conversations that children will also receive as conversations about race Brigitte, as always, that's fantastic.
EmbraceRace: A lot of yeah, really good information. And as I said, as I promised- ... really clearly explained, really accessibly explained. One thing I wanted to ask to kick that, those this, this segment off is, I think a lot of the work that you refer to I think a lot of work that you've done yourself on, color, colorblindness in [00:34:00] parent socialization is based on white families, right?
Brigitte Vittrup: Yes. White parents of white kids. I know it's not the only work out there, but I also know there isn't a ton of work, certainly across all the groups who might be interested, including the ones we call people of color. But I wonder if you could say a little bit about whatever we do know from what's been done on, yeah, what kind of patterns do we see, among Black families, among Latino families, Asian American families?
I think you've done some recently on biracial Asian American families. Yeah. Yeah. I- what's interesting is you certainly do see a- across the research that conversations about race are more common in families of color, especially among Black families and also Hispanic or Latinx families.
We see it less so in, in Asian families, although more than the white families. And part of that is because it's often not a choice that it is a, a lived [00:35:00] experience that, race is such a salient part of who you are because society makes it such a salient part of who you are if you are a person of color, especially in the United States.
Whereas as white people, it's it's almost a privilege to not have to think about your race. I grew up in Denmark which at the time was, like, 90, 95% white, and so it wasn't until I moved to the US that, my race actually became something that I thought about because I just lived a bun- with amongst a bunch of white people.
And so it really is, but also the way that- Historically and still today, people of color are treated that race just comes up so often that they don't really have a choice. So we see more of the, especially in terms of preparation for bias but also cultural pride and making sure that their children are proud of their heritage and who they are.
And especially we see it among Black and Hispanic families. But one, one thing that's interesting is that I did I did some [00:36:00] research. I was developing a, a color conscious parenting scale and we had about 400 people participate in this survey, which included a kind of an almost an even amount of people of different racial backgrounds.
And interestingly enough, even among people of color, the color blind conversations were still the most common of all of the types of conversations including, preparation for bias or cultural socialization. So that part was really interesting to me. But I think it also shows that, sometimes the, the color blind or egalitarian conversations that happen among people of color, sometimes it- it's even for self-preservation to just not always...
EmbraceRace: It can be exhausting to always have to talk about it, especially if we're talking about the biases and how people are being treated. Thank you, guys. One quick follow-up. Yeah, go ahead. Just one quick follow-up on that. Again, just thinking about where this work has been done, with [00:37:00] whom.
Brigitte Vittrup: I'm thinking now about w- what we often think of as religious identities, right? But especially the ones that have been many would say racialized, right? So Muslim identity in the now 25-year wake of 9/11 in this country. Jewish identity, we know that antisemitism, acts of antisemitism have spiked- against people who are Jewish or perceived to be Jewish. I wonder if there's any work on those populations. Yeah. There, there is. I haven't personally done any of this, but you do see it. You do see it amongst these populations where, if you're- The, especially in the US, people of, for example people who are Muslim especially post 9/11.
I even had a conversation. I had one of my doctoral student she was from Kuwait, and she was Muslim, lived in the US for a long time. And she said that in her community, 'cause she lived in a neighborhood where there were a lot of Muslim families, and she said, "We don't go [00:38:00] outside on 9/11 because we don't want to feel the hatred."
And so they're living with that, right? And the- and they're trying to, and they're being forced to have these conversations with their children. I think there's less of the research, and part of it is also that a lot of my research, and I'm less aware of that research, but it's just as important because it's y- the same biases.
You look at the media, and a lot of times, you know the terrorists are, it's usually the Muslims are portrayed as terrorists. So when you hear terrorists, that's what people think about. And so tho- those biases that we're forming because of the information that's out there makes it even more important that we have these conversations.
EmbraceRace: So we have so many great questions that we got in before and now. I wanna start with this one by Cara who says, "I find that when I ask my white 12-year-old daughter and her friends questions, they will parrot back trappings of colorblindness. I [00:39:00] struggle to tell them what they are doing without being critical and have them f- and making them feel bad, which makes them dread the conversations."
I think that's a pretty common experience, right? A- and I have to say it's also common for all of us. I think what we call color braveness or color awareness or consciousness is aspirational, right? But it's not something that you do all the time, and it's not as though we're not in the stew of colorblind ideology.
And I find myself sometimes maybe talking about school, when you're just having a quick conversation, right? And you're like, "Oh you're working hard, and that's why you're doing well." Like, all of these conversations about meritocracy without the bigger context. And you do want your kids to work hard, right?
Brigitte Vittrup: But that doesn't mean that working hard, gets you the prize, right? So this question of how do you navigate, both for ourselves but in Cara's case, kids coming back with this [00:40:00] language, and how do you how do you address it? I think first of all it, it's definitely it's so common, right?
Because the, again, parents and people my age when I, especially when I talk to white people my age, even if they want to have the conversations, they were not used to it. And so if you have these 12-year-old kids who that i- And I don't know. Is that... Is she talking about, is she a teacher? No way I'm sorry Oh, so that's a parent.
Yeah. Okay. Because I would say especially for teachers because it it's so common that you will see that in school as well. I think part of the way to address it is to just start having those conversations, and it will be uncomfortable because we've been accustomed to the colorblind language.
Everybody's, we're all the same on the inside, and we should all treat everybody with kindness. But really starting to have those conversations, and that might be especially for a [00:41:00] 12-year-old, it might be bringing up a news story or a video or some portrayal. It could be books.
There are books also for, teenagers or tweens to a- about this topic. But really starting the conversation and eas- easing into the conversation because as you start talking about it more, they become used to talking about it more. And then it becomes, oh, this is okay to talk about.
EmbraceRace: 'Cause if these conversations have not happened- ... these kids are already understanding that this is not something that people talk about. They don't talk about it at school. We don't talk about it at home. This must be a taboo topic. Yeah. A- and it seems also that we all grow.
Like I like to... the Melissa Geraud of 20 years ago is not the Melissa Geraud of today, and I keep evolving, and I hope that continues to be true. So I think I have so, we have so many experiences that we can share in even real time about- missing the mark or, [00:42:00] about- Oh, yeah
something that didn't get there. I think a, a classic one that I hear a lot in sort of a, I'm multiracial and, white-presenting multiracial, and in those conversations there's a lot of, everyone's just as beautiful as everyone else, and it stops there.
And it really is... and I just remember as a kid thinking, "No one... Do they believe this?" Because there's this whole because that's not how society treats us at all, right? So you know. So it's like an untruth that they're saying, so you have to say something about, we've been taught not to believe this but it, but that's wrong, and this is how that was done, and this is how we fight against it.
Brigitte Vittrup: There has to be that- Yeah ... deeper thing or else you're just moving your mouth. Yeah. And I think also because a lot of parents I've talked to that say I raised my child to be color blind," or, "My child is color blind," it's this utopian ideal, and wouldn't it be great if our society was color blind, if the color of your skin didn't matter?
[00:43:00] Wouldn't that be a lovely thing? That's what we want to aspire to. But we can't get there by speaking in color blind language because we are not color blind. Children are not color blind. Our society is not color blind. So I think sometimes that there's sort of this, utopian ideal.
Everybody's just as beautiful as everybody else, and yes, it should be that way, and at some level, yes, we might think that. But that doesn't mean that people are being treated that way, and so that's the conversation that we need to still have. Thank you. Yeah. Brigitte, here's another question for you.
EmbraceRace: In white-passing boys in particular, I hear that learning about race can make them feel a lot of guilt and shame. How do you talk about the privilege of their identities without instilling feelings that may eventually lead to resentment or misunderstanding? And this comes from the parent of young Muslim American men.
Brigitte Vittrup: Yeah, I think, again, part of it is important to have these conversations and leave space [00:44:00] for the feelings, and let them express how they're feeling, talking about their identity. And it- oftentimes, and we see it with biracial children too, that and people of different skin tones, and especially if somebody's white-presenting versus not that different scenarios that they're in, the envi- in their environment, they end up feeling differently.
And throughout time, when they go through their identity development, and especially in, once they get to adolescence and the early teen years is really when racial identity starts to fully develop. And sometimes we see a shift. I've seen it in my own children too, where the way they identified when they were younger is shifting.
And actually both of my kids are even though they're both, they have the same parents, they're the same racial makeup but they identify differently. And that has changed over the years. And so I think it's important to keep talking about that, talking [00:45:00] about the history, talking about, certainly having these conversations about making them feel good about who they are, making them feel good about their heritage, and that the way they choose to identify, you know, regardless of how the rest of the world identifies them.
They have a right to identify how they feel, who they are. But also having the conversations that, yeah, unfortunately sometimes the, the rest of the world is going to look at you differently. But, make sure that you empower them to feel good about who they are while also having these conversations.
EmbraceRace: And asking them, how do you feel about that? What are you thinking about that?" 'Cause it can be a lot to carry for an adolescent when they're starting to realize all of this. But, having very open conversations about it. Richard, I wonder if I can actually ask you a question about those kids of yours whom you've mentioned a couple times.
So at the beginning of your presentation reviewed a bit some of the benefits of talking about race in a sort of an honest way, open way, being explicit [00:46:00] about it. And you al- you've also mentioned that you've talked to, you mentioned the post-Floyd conversation, I think with your son, and who was very privy to what was going on, what had happened, lots of conversations.
So I'm imagining that, you really did talk about race openly with your kids over a long period of time, what many of us aspire to do. So beyond the what the research tells us about the benefits of this, I'm wondering what you may have seen in your life in, with your children after, the history that they've had with you and perhaps your husband talking about these issues one thing that I've certainly noticed is that it's just a normal thing now, right?
Brigitte Vittrup: It... and again, I grew up in, in a country full of white people, and this was not something that we talked about for many years living in the US. Race was not something I talked about a lot, and I was not [00:47:00] comfortable talking about it 'cause it was... I was trying to figure it all out. I became more comfortable talking about it.
I was very intentional having these conversations with my kids. My husband and I, bec- again, my husband is Black we've had very open conversations about race even before we had kids, and so we felt it was very important also to have these. It's a little more salient for me than if I had just been married to a white man and had two white kids, right?
So obviously it is more salient, but we were also very intentional about it bringing it up, when they were little about, the skin color and the skin is busy. And even just the kids trying to understand. I remember one time I made a comment about me being white and my husband being Black, and my son who he was probably five at the time, he goes, "Dad is not Black."
Because to him it was just like he's brown, and my d- my or my husband was like, "What do you mean I'm not Black? I'm Black and I'm proud," right? So these conversations have just occurred in my [00:48:00] family over time, including when there have been, incidents of, racial discrimination.
Right now I'm having conversations with... My daughter is 14. She identifies as mixed, and she's still going through the yes, I'm half white, but she's feeling more Black and identifies more with her Black friends, but she has white friends that she's grown up with. And she's made a con- she... We had a conversation just this morning where she said, "Yeah, I do feel more uncomfortable if I'm just in a big group of all white people."
And so we- she feels comfortable bringing these conversations up, and it's the same thing with my son. So I think there's a lot of benefits to starting those conversations early and continuing to have the conversations because the kids will recognize that it's okay to talk about and we can bring it up and have conversations.
EmbraceRace: Because again, now it's just a normal thing. We just talk about it like we talk about everything else. [00:49:00] Brigitte, your presentation, and we will share, the recording and various resources with everyone later, addressed a lot of these questions that we've gotten. But so I want to take a bit of a spin.
There are a lot of educators in the audience, and one of the big one of the questions is how to... There are a couple questions. One is there a curriculum to do this, right? That comes up a lot. We want more than sort of guidelines, right? And that's very hard to come up with because of the context.
But then the other question that is anti-curriculum is how do I do this in a school in the current, if I'm where you are, Brigitte, in Texas, right? You're dealing some of this. How do I have these conversations with students and, not get fired or whatever it is. So I wonder, I don't know what you have to say to that, but I wonder what you're hearing from where you are and how you'd address that.
Brigitte Vittrup: It's difficult. I, I think we s- for a while were taking a lot of steps forward, and there were [00:50:00] multicultural curricula that came out that were really trying to make sure that course materials were more, applicable to all backgrounds and really educating students about experiences of people who are not in the majority race.
And that was a thing in Texas too because what we're seeing is that, the majority of kids in schools, it- it's starting to shift to where the majority of the kids are actually kids of color. But we are in a different landscape now with some, some legislative bills that, that we've had in Texas and in other states as well that is limiting a bit of what y- you can and cannot teach in the schools.
And it's difficult for the teachers. I don't have a great answer to it. There certainly are curricula that are more diverse than others. But there are also, I recognize there are restrictions. [00:51:00] We're facing book bans in Texas which is difficult because some of the books that are banned are the ones that have more of these, race-based experiences.
And so it- it's difficult. I think it- It is easier to have these conversations these days on an individual basis, and whether that is, with friends or with individual, parents or colleagues. Because sometimes what will happen is someone saying "Oh, they just think I'm talking about race all the time."
And I think i- for a person of color, if you're just talking about your own experiences, by nature that is talking about race, and that is important because it's talking about your experiences, where we don't see that if somebody who's white talks about their experiences. We don't consider it to be something about race.
But I even think in that sense sometimes having those conversations, whether it be with a colleague or with a parent, that sharing your experiences maybe more on an individual basis, [00:52:00] maybe in a parent-teacher group. And then also, b- but still answering questions because if kids are answer- are asking questions in the classroom, you still want to answer their questions.
And if somebody brings up like this is about race and you shouldn't talk about race," maybe even asking back what is it?" Which piece is too much, or which piece should we not be talking about? But I recognize it's difficult these days. It really is. Thank you, Brigitte. Thank you, Brigitte.
EmbraceRace: Last question. I know we're right at time. You've shared a lot of information about what to do, what to say. But for, the parent, and you mentioned, yes, easier for parents, friends perhaps to have this conversation, right? Don't have institutional constraints. For those folks who are watching, listening, wanting to do this work, what is the first step?
Brigitte Vittrup: That you might recommend to them I think really a lot of it is what we call do, do the homework, right? I s- I highly recommend, and one of the books that mine is a different color, but this book right [00:53:00] here, like I highly recommend it. And mine is all, because I've had it for so long, and I've read it multiple times.
It really is great. Educating yourself on, some of the issues, and being willing to be uncomfortable. Recognize your own biases because that really is important. We all have biases. I- we can't help that. We're products of our environment. But recognizing them because then you can start ac- making sure you're not acting on them.
And then really just start opening up the conversation. This is not something that's gonna happen overnight where the kids are just gonna be like, "Oh, I have this question." And now it's gonna be very much like y- you are asking these questions maybe with a book, and the child is giving three-word answers, right?
But over time they will become-- they, they will recognize this is okay to talk about. They will start asking questions. They will start engaging in the conversation. They will start bringing stuff to you because they know, hey, this is okay to talk about. [00:54:00] And then also just remember, you are not always gonna get it right, and that is okay because it's not a one-time conversation.
EmbraceRace: It is something that keeps going. Brigitte, you're the best. You're the best. Oh, wait. Are we muted? No. Brigitte, you're the best, and we're so appreciative we kept you over. Thank you, everybody. Don't forget to donate to EmbraceRace and to other organizations, people doing race work. It's important.
It's underfunded. We're so appreciative of our amazing collaborator, Brigitte Richard. Thanks everyone for showing up. Brigitte, thank you once again. Thanks for all your questions. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Bye. Bye. Thank you everybody for coming. Thanks everyone. We'll send you stuff. Bye.
