Melissa Giraud, EmbraceRace: [00:00:00] Thanks for being here. We will start with our special, special guests real soon. And as usual, I'm Melissa, and I'm messing up the tech. But, we haven't had a webinar in a while, and we're so glad that you all, could make it. This, webinar was, over 600 of you have, registered, and, a very big portion of you, about 20%, had questions, comments.
So very engaged. I know some of you know our speakers, some of you don't. But this is gonna be a really good one. This is a very hard moment for many families, and we're hearing from you. we feel it ourselves. people- racism's been, increasingly explicit. Our kids are feeling it. and the mental health of our kids matters, of our, of our Black kids, of our kids of color, [00:01:00] in particular, who are the, are being affected, as are their parents by, this explicitness of sort of racism and, the actions, taken on by this administration that have hurt, many families and organizations and all that.
So we're very excited to have some, be able to present, bring you some, guests that can really speak to give you some of the tools that they've been working on for a really long time. you know them, you love them. You might not know them, you will love them. Riana has been on with us a bunch, and I talk to her a lot and vent and, we, we really thought this would be a conversation that we all need right now, so she was good enough to reach out, to Dr.
Stevenson, and they're here. Want to intro?
Andrew Grant-Thomas, EmbraceRace: Yeah. Let me just offer, some of the kind of brief [00:02:00] resume stuff for you to know about these folks. and I think it's fair to say they're much more than is reflected in their resumes. However, Dr. Howard Stevenson is the Clayton Professor of Urban Education, Professor of Africana Studies in the Human Development and Quantitative Methods Division of the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania.
He's also, as, Melissa already mentioned, a former advisor and, I think, ongoing mentor to Riana Anderson, who is one of our favorite people and has been one of our most frequent guests on this podcast. Riana, is a licensed clinical psychologist, CEO and founder of Race Space Inc., and associate professor at Columbia University School of Social Work.
Her scholarship addresses applied coping strategies [00:03:00] to reduce race-related stress in Black families. the two professors' work are, close- certainly what you'll be hearing about today is closely related. And with that, I will turn it over to Riana and Howard with thanks.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Far too generous.
Y'all far too generous, and good afternoon, good morning, good evening to everyone out there in the world. Dr. Stevenson, so good to see your face. Good to see you. Your beardy, bearded face,
Howard C. Stevenson: Thank you, Dr. Anderson. I know it's a shock to you, but it's, appreciate every, every accolade that, you give me.
Yes.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Absolutely. And welcome to everyone in the chat. Please keep dropping who you are, where you're from. So good to see such variety of locations. And as we're talking, Dr. Stevenson, just to get us kicked off, and as Melissa and Andrew have already set this groundwork, it's a heavy time no matter where you are.
And right now [00:04:00] there are a lot of news stories coming out of a lot of cities about what's happening to children of color, how parents are dealing with some of these situations. And so I think it's im- appropriate just to start off by acknowledging that so many people may be coming here with hearts heavy, acknowledging so many of the stories that are, are happening across the country.
So just wanting to open up, especially with you being a father, just how you're doing right now and what's on your heart.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yeah. thank, thank you Melissa and Andrew for the introduction, and good, good to see you, Dr. Anderson. it has been, it's been painful actually. It's not a day that goes by, that I don't worry about both of my sons.
They, they know my, my sort of, hovering around them at times, calling at weird times. And, but all of that's related to the [00:05:00] larger trauma of, hearing other stories around the country where young people, teenage and adult Black men, particularly being tracked and followed and mistreated. it could happen anytime, anywhere, so it's a constant fear.
And, part of our work, collective work, both you and I have been around, how do you manage that fear? How do you help others manage that fear? It, it affects health outcomes. But currently I do, I'm worried about both of them, given this climate. so
Riana Elyse Anderson: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I don't have any kiddos of my own, and have worked with so many young people across the United States, and I just wanna acknowledge a moment that I had a few days...
or really a week ago now. I was at the National Urban League Conference in Nashville, and Ben Crump was there bringing up the families of Nolan [00:06:00] Wells and two other- Yeah ... young Black males who have been killed in, in really eerie circumstances as well, all around this 4th of July time, which I think would need- Yeah
its own webinar to unpack what, what we mean- Yeah ... by independence and liberation in this country, and how that may or may not be the case for all of our citizens, or, or residents, right? Yeah. But, the heaviness that I carried watching these parents on stage who had to keep it together, who had to present themselves in ways where they showed strength and, and resilience, and yet so many of us in the audience were just boo-hoo weeping.
I'm hugging the person behind me. I'm, I'm filled with such sadness and grief as someone who's carrying this collective familial spirit. So I, I really just wanted to kick it off with that just to acknowledge this unfortunately is not like-
It, said another way, this, [00:07:00] we often find ourselves talking about these heavy situations, so we, we're often carrying these burdens and these challenges when we do these webinars, and this is not unlike those times
Howard C. Stevenson: Oh, absolutely
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah
Howard C. Stevenson: Yeah
Riana Elyse Anderson: But what you've shared, Dr.
Stevenson, in your introduction of who you are and what our work is, what we've done, we think about ways to combat what society or what the world often dishes out to our beautiful children and, and children of color in particular. And you've got something that you've developed and that you've really spent time thinking about with respect to racial comebacks or healthy racial comebacks.
And I've had the privilege of being in a room with you and some Philly young people working on this as a part of my training. so I just wanna step back a bit and talk about- this concept of healthy racial comebacks. What is it? What do we want- Sure ... to solve [00:08:00] by doing them? Let's just start there- Yeah
and sprinkle in other interventions that you think are, are warranted too.
Howard C. Stevenson: Sounds great. Sounds great. we, you, we both know that, the field of racial socialization is background to this. Do, how do parents protect their children from hate, of any kind? but it's an argument about how all families try to do that, and, and particularly the stress of, do I give the talk?
How do I give the talk? What if my children don't listen? What if, they only get part of it? And that, that lack of clarity is stressful on parents, but it's stressful on aunties, it's stressful on sisters and brothers, it's stressful on cousins. And part of the challenge of, of racial socialization is how do we know that our children are ready when somebody is stepping into their face, into their space, into their learning, into their joy?
And, comeback lines, which I've been doing for [00:09:00] over two and a half decades, just because I travel a lot to schools and spend a lot of time with middle schoolers and even early, early schoolers, and when they tell me their stories, they feel, particularly in middle school, that I have friends that I don't even like, but if I- Mm-hmm
if I, if I don't stay with them, I will be alone, right? And they will say- Hmm ... very clearly, not only that they don't like them, but how they don't like them. And they will bring up experiences that, that tell them exactly why, and yet they feel without options. And so some of the idea around how can we protect our children, which families and parents worry about, is not just about the future, it's what happens in the moment.
So the strategy- of comeback lines is like an intervention for, I can't wait till I get home. I can't wait till I find, a teacher. I can't wait till, till I can share with my family. And so comeback lines is appreciating the harm that happens in the moment. Somebody may say something intentional, even [00:10:00] unintentional And so comeback lines are really for you to protect yourself.
It's not really about the other person as much as really about how you navigate, the harm that's happened to you. 'Cause so many times you will stay with friends for a while, not like them, but not really know why, you don't like them. Or if you do know why you don't like them, you don't track the harm it has on your, your thoughts, your feelings, and your body.
And so the way we've constructed healthy racial comeback lines, which are also intersectional, is what can you think about and notice regarding the harm of the moment, and then what can you do and say to yourself, especially yourself, how you will reject that harm, how you would reject that hate?
Because those things linger in our sleep, they linger in our dreams, they linger in our ruminations, what we say to ourselves. And, it ul- it ultimately affects our heart and our health and our sleep. [00:11:00] Absolutely. And our relationships, Yeah. And before we jump to more of the theoretical work around this, the underpinnings of it, again, one of the things that I've witnessed you do so beautifully in this situation is to demonstrate the range of options that young people have.
Riana Elyse Anderson: A- and so this idea of what makes it healthy is really crucial for you because there are comeback lines, right? You can, you can- Yeah ... say anything that you want, you can do anything that you want, but you just tapped in really beautifully to what are you doing to assess how that's making you feel? Is it effective in what you were trying to do?
Does it get you in more harm? So how do you, how- a- as we think through this, how is it that- You've developed more of this therapeutic approach to what may just culturally be, "Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna clap back. I'm gonna respond back to this thing."
Howard C. Stevenson: [00:12:00] I think that a key part is, is, is self-care, but a lot of people define self-care very differently, and I would argue that, the mindfulness approach that I've been using for a very long time called CLCBE is, is like a key in a sense that, we may know that I was insulted by what somebody said that I thought I- was my friend or somebody I knew was an enemy, but we don't always track how deep that harm goes.
So calculate, locate, communicate, breathe, and exhale. CLCBE is just a strategy to increase your awareness. How well can I notice the harm that's happened in my thoughts, in my feelings, in my body? And we neglect the body so much. it doesn't matter how old you are, but imagine if you had a strategy where you could not only not just know that you were hurt, but how and how deeply you were hurt and how it's connected to your struggle with learning, your [00:13:00] struggle with listening, your struggle with sleeping, right?
And that's what the mindfulness approach is trying to do.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. You are really good at guiding folks through CLCBE, and you're really, y- your examples are really demonstrative. I know you happen to have some slides on you, and I would love to channel them if we... Do you wanna bring them in right now? I...
Howard C. Stevenson: you still know my addiction to slides.
And I appreciate you using my stra- my trauma as a useful tool for other people as well. Great. Great. So yes, I will, I will share, share them with glee that I can't show in public. but- so this is... Let me, let me see when you can see 'em. Let me know.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yes, sir. We're on it.
Howard C. Stevenson: Okay. So we think about healthy racial comeback lines in the context of- realizing that there are some, quote unquote, maybe not so [00:14:00] healthy, but we'll, we'll talk about that.
But really it's about finding your voice when hate is in your face.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Mm.
Howard C. Stevenson: And, part of the... Let me see here. Sorry. it's based in the work that you and I have been doing around racial literacy, which is the ability to read, recast, and resolve stressful discriminatory racial encounters. And you created DRE, which is fantastic as a way to understand.
And, and we are thinking even more broadly and intersectional in what that means. But these three skills are what we try to teach, read, recast, and resolve. And read, to read is to notice yourself, is to, what some call interoceptive awareness, or can you see yourself be yourself? Can you, be seeing yourself being yourself?
It's this capacity to notice stuff about you that, that you're really joyful about or that you might even be scared about. It takes courage to look at noticing, what just happened to me, and where in my body, thoughts, and [00:15:00] feelings can I read that? It's also about reading other people, but it's really more- Yeah
in this case about can you notice yourself, even the scary, scary parts that you're afraid to see?
EmbraceRace: Mm.
Howard C. Stevenson: Recast is this capacity w- in our field we know as emotion regulation flexibility. Can I, can I literally move my... On a scale of one to 10, where eight, nine, 10 is a threat level around stress, five, six, seven is like- challenging but not impossible, and one to four would be this, this notion of really easy.
So eight, nine, and 10 would be like facing a tsunami, right? Yeah. That's the kind of moment this was like. or a poisonous snake right in front of me. F- five through s- seven would be, like climbing a mountain. Challenging, but not impossible. we think of recasting as this ability to literally, regulate your feelings up or down.
And I like finding your temper as a way to describe it because, the, the notion of temper I [00:16:00] think is a beautiful, world, Rihanna-- a word, Rihanna, because it's around this capacity to not only engage your anger, but also your calm. The, the word temper actually means both of those things- Mm ... at the same time.
And so many of us are trying to hide our anger, f- particularly around issues of race or what it looks like. You need both of them. Anger is a beautiful emotion to help you, to tell you something is not right, and, and calm is this capacity to also regulate up or down. And so when we think of regulation, we're not just squelching our feelings.
It's actually- sometimes you need to be angry and direct.
And this, this is very important around comeback lines, like being like water. Sometimes water is calm, sometimes water is, is engaged and, and, and, and strong. And so- Mm ... in that sense we think about recasting as finding your temper. And then resolving is really where the comeback lines come in, where you practice your voice.
You're literally trying to confront hate, whatever hate that [00:17:00] is about. in a nutshell, the comeback lines are-- the basic comeback line of all comeback lines is, "I reject your rejection of me." And this is about statements, thoughts, attitudes, mannerisms, but the key issue is, some rules that we have about it, and one of those is can you notice the impact of the harm?
And we use CLCBE, which is calculate, locate, communicate, breathe, and exhale. it's a, it's a way for you to notice what's happening. Calculate would be like I'm angry at a 10. and I can, not only notice those feelings, calculate those feelings, identify those feelings. I'll give you an example.
I got called the N-word by a colleague once, and I was angry, at a nine, and I was sad at, an eight. and I said to myself, I thought, Jerry and I were friends 'cause we used to go to the 76ers game together. Hmm. So calculate [00:18:00] is literally noticing your feelings, how many you have, and then how intense they are.
Locate is where in your body do you feel it? I was angry at a nine, sad at a 10 at, we'll call him Jerry. and I can feel that on the back of my neck, like my neck was on fire, Rihanna. It was, like, on fire. And I, and I, and when I noticed further, it was on the left side of my neck-
not the entire neck, right?
So that's nine of, anger. Sadness I felt in my stomach, in my gut, like I'd been kicked in the gut. Betrayal it felt like. and that's, that would be locate. Communicate has two parts. Communicate is what do I say to myself? Which I said, "I thought Jerry and I were friends 'cause we went to the 76ers game together."
Self-talk, rumination, you know about that. and then images. What memories or images come to my mind?
and I reflected back, in college when, when Roots came on television. And at, at the college I was at, the Black students across campus [00:19:00] for a week had a whole different set of attitudes about that history of that, of that image, of those images.
So and then finally breathing in four counts, exhaling out, holding it in four counts, and then exhaling out. This is the process we can teach third graders how to, to manage their feelings. And once you know the level of the harm, calculate, locate, communicate, breathe, and exhale teaches you about, how you want to do comeback lines.
So quickly, one, you never have to say your comeback line to the offender because it's really about you, and we've learned that a lot of students don't even have to say it to the person because they're taking care of themself as they're doing this process. and it satisfies a lot of the pain and the trauma.
Two, you must learn to believe it for yourself first. If you can't convince yourself, Rihanna, it will not be useful, right? I have to believe this for me more than the other. You don't [00:20:00] control who the other is or what they will do or how they respond. That's not your goal. The core comeback line, I reject your rejection of me.
You have to practice stuff you can say in public as well as things that are private because sometimes we're so nice we don't get y- to the ranges of zero to 10. We only stay between four and six. We need to be able to be honest about how this stuff is feeling. And you can't say it without practice, Rihanna.
Imagine You ever tell a joke, you screw up the punchline
and then people are laughing at you instead of the joke? You don't want that. So you have to practice it until it becomes your movement, attitude, rhythm. Can you hear me?
Riana Elyse Anderson: Doc, it went- Can you hear me? ... in and out. It, it may be helpful if you could repeat. Just
Howard C. Stevenson: checking in
Riana Elyse Anderson: Can you hear me, Doc?
Howard C. Stevenson: Okay. Repeat from,
Riana Elyse Anderson: The whole last example [00:21:00] How about now? ... would be really helpful
Howard C. Stevenson: don't stay without practice
No? Okay. How about, practicing comeback lines until they become comfortable for you, until they become yours. And you don't say it without practice, because you don't wanna, you don't wanna be prepared. you wanna be able to be able to say it, when you are confident. And you have to use your style, your movement, attitude, rhythm, tone, and personality.
And movement is a key part here. Most people think a comeback line is just saying it. we have to act it out in our work. So I- you have to stand up. You have to literally be in the physical, space. real quickly, whatever score you get around your CLCBE, if you say, I'm angry at a nine, but your comeback line satisfaction is at a two or three, you're selling yourself short.
That's basically all this means. You gotta practice it until it's smooth, but you also have to say, how satisfactory is my [00:22:00] comeback line for addressing the harm that I learned from my mindfulness approach? And three things, and I'll end on this. Heal- it's about healing, not harm. About dignity, not dehumanization.
And confrontation, not retaliation
Riana Elyse Anderson: Right. So if you were as, Gifted or blessed as I was with that gift, please feel free to drop, something in the chat. Just let us know, what you glean from that. But, Doc, the one thing that I heard and that I want to distill perhaps, because it's something that I often say to folks in this space, is that if you don't have data, there is nothing that you can do with yourself or with the other person.
When we are, and I think this again is your point for the, the healthy element, that when we simply respond, we simply react, we simply do this thing without regard [00:23:00] to what our body or our mind is feeling, what it desires, what a potential outcome can be, that's when the space can, can be quite challenging or scary, but we need data.
And so you've given us really concrete tools to be able to s- to say, especially with CLCVE, I'm at a nine, I feel it in my stomach. The self-talk was this. Now I have to regulate myself enough with the breathing and exhaling to be able to say something or do something back that feels appropriate, it feels commensurate, and it feels agentic with what I wanna do.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes, absolutely. And if you always keep in mind you never have to say it back to the offender, it's really for you, and you won't say it until you're ready, then you have many options, available, until you're comfortable.
Riana Elyse Anderson: That's right. And it, if I'm... Let me know if I'm off on this, but it, it doesn't even have to [00:24:00] be what one might traditionally think of, of walking up to that person and saying "And another thing."
it doesn't have to be that. It can be- Yeah ... here's a letter, or here's a policy move, or something that I'm doing that extends how I feel to the situation.
Howard C. Stevenson: Absolutely. And, and you want to include friends that, that you do trust who also might witness this, but they themselves are, are fra- afraid to speak up because of the, the power dynamics.
we also play a game, that you've probably seen on television like throw out a lifeline, right? Where if you are stuck with a comeback line, you tell somebody your story, someone could give you a comeback line, and you get to choose whether you, you could use it, it has to be right for you, and whether it would be part of your style, personality, movement.
there are other ways to learn not just by yourself how to do this. You could do it with families. You obviously, in developing embrace have another way to [00:25:00] think about that, right? I'm sure you have- plenty of ideas, Rihanna, about how to be fun, how to make it fun, how to make it comical, how make it direct- Yeah
at the same time. Yeah.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. aren't you lucky that we're gonna be able to do some of that role play right now? it's It's what you love to do, it's what I love to do, and it's what the people are asking for. They're like, "What are concrete examples that we can do with young people?" and so I'm, I'm curious, as we get started, as we prep ourselves for what a healthy racial comeback would look like When you have young people, what might be the first thing that you need to do with them?
What's the most important thing that you would need before getting started? Is there, a mindset that people need to have? Are there materials? let's get real tangible.
Howard C. Stevenson: I think the first thing might be to, to think about how you might either under-react [00:26:00] or overreact. Hmm. So if you know your style or you have a friend or a parent, family member could help you, what's your likely first reaction to do?
And some of us are really good at squelching, right? We're really good at pretending that didn't happen. What are you talking about, Willis? Or whatever we say to ourselves, we just keep moving on as if nothing bothered us. Others of us, though, are, like, quick to retaliate, say something, do something, maybe even regret later, maybe not even remember what I said.
I would argue that is a, a first kind of strategy. What is my comeback approach? And sometimes it's to shrink, and sometimes it is to, retaliate without thinking through. so that would be a first thought.
Riana Elyse Anderson: And Doc, I'm so- Go for it ... so happy that you said that because a lot of the questions that we got prior to the webinar, we're so grateful for the people who took the time and energy.
We tried to create some themes, and we're trying to tap into those themes as we [00:27:00] go along. One of the themes that came up that you just hit really beautifully is, like, how do adults play a role in- preparing children for what's happening? So either before an incident happens, which you've already said, racial socialization or the way that we prepare children by having these conversations, by un- by popping the hood, by, unveiling what is actually happening in society.
In other words, not shying away from having the talk in these conversations is something that we do to prepare before. But what you're saying about preparing them afterwards requires parents to have a sense of how they want to react and how they feel, right? Yeah. So it's not just the kiddo. It's not how does your kiddo typically respond to things.
It's an assessment for yourself as the parent. How do you respond? How do, how are you facilitating or inhibiting your kiddo's response too? Yes.
Howard C. Stevenson: Oh, that is such an important [00:28:00] point. In fact, Avryana, with all the students I've worked with for many years, they will tell me a story that my parents love me, but they only give me good stories.
They only, they only want me to get to the mountaintop of my life, but I'm in the valley sometimes, right?
EmbraceRace: Hmm.
Howard C. Stevenson: And, and they, I wanna hear them, and I say this to parents all the time. They wanna hear your valley stories of how you struggled so that we can get an honest reflection of what did you do when you were in this valley?
Not, not that I'm gonna be great, but I'm struggling now. Tell me about your struggle when you share your narrative. and so encouraging families and parents to be upfront about their, their stories,
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah ...
Howard C. Stevenson: and when they struggled, on the way to the comeback line. That, that is so key- Yeah ... 'cause it says I can look at the s- the scary things in my life and, and share those since you're now in a scary space.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. You, you mentioned Embrace, and I just wanna share with families here who may not, be aware or, aren't we on an Embrace call? [00:29:00] Let me just differentiate what we're- talking about very quickly. So this idea that, we're taking this recast theory that we'll also try to bring in a bit, too, h- how is it that we are talking about racial encounters with our kids?
What's, what are our approaches to coping with appraising, with socializing? All of these things are baked into the theory. And what we did with Dr. Stevenson and, our work at Penn a decade ago, which, what are you saying, a decade? But anyway, a decade a- I know. The time has flown. Anyway, a decade ago, what we unearthed from that is that parents have held things in because they themselves were children, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And they have had their own racial experiences, and those things are now coming up as they're parenting. Yeah. So what you're asking us to do, this unpacking for ourselves as the adults, as the caregivers for these kiddos, requires us to do [00:30:00] things that some people have not done for 25, 30 years as they are replaying what, you said, Jerry, or, what happened to them when they were a kid, and now- Yeah
it's coming back. Or what happens to them at work that they're not able to unpack with other people that is now coming up when, when they're parenting. So you're, you're really giving us some great knowledge, and my- Like the applied version of this, this Embrace program that we developed based on our theory has shown us these parents who are really struggling with doing that for themselves.
Yeah.
Howard C. Stevenson: Abso- absolutely. And to get back to your earlier point that when families actually do share the struggles they had in their childhood life, that it also connects us to a larger history. So knowing our, our ancestral history around- Mm ... we've gone through things that others before us have, have had to navigate in a way that connects us to a [00:31:00] larger universe, as it were, so we're not alone.
And we're always learning new stuff around, how this hate has been, has been intergenerational.
Riana Elyse Anderson: That's right. And I'm seeing questions, and again, I think this ties in really neatly to what we're gonna do when we start practicing. questions every time you and I do a, a speaking engagement, every time a webinar shows up with Embrace Race, the question of, what if my child is this and I'm this?
What... There are always questions around identities- Yeah ... for, for families. So I wanna incorporate that as we go, but I, I also just wanna name- What you're bringing up is a-racial. You're, you're saying that everyone has to understand their own history, the history of our society, the dynamics that that's gonna bring out in the family, and there doesn't have to be a prescriptive what if I'm this or this.
It's we all have a responsibility here.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes. I [00:32:00] see some, some comments in the, in the chat. if I can make a plug for a nonprofit I co-founded called The Lion Story, which we train professionals to, to, to deal with issues of race particularly, but also intersexual issues in the con- in the context of the workplace.
That could be school, could be police, could be, folks who work in prisons. It could be anybody, even corporate folks, that's feeling overwhelmed whenever something racial or i- identity-based shows up. And so in the process of, of that work, what we've learned is, this proverb, the lion's story will never be known as long as the hunter is the one to tell it.
So whether you're a white parent or you're, your story matters. Everybody's story matters, and can you share your story? And that means what are, what childhood issues did you have as a white parent, or as a parent from the Caribbean? Those narratives we think of, out of the beautiful work, [00:33:00] of, of amazing scholars, and who talked about the rupture and splendor of our existence, that we need to engage both the, the scary things and the beautiful things of our past because that's how we grow more, more powerful to address future hate.
And what's your story is the better question, and are, how much are you willing to share that with your people, with your children, even the ugly parts? and that's, that's what we mean by the lion's story will never be known as long as the hunter's the one to tell it, but you're gonna have to fight for your narrative, and what better place than with your own children or your family to, to do that?
Riana Elyse Anderson: It's beautiful. If you give them a little dodge so that they can see the lion behind you, that would be great. Just- Oh. There it is. Okay. Yeah. There- Okay. Got it. Thank you. There is that- that lion that reminds us of- ... such a important- Yes ... concept of fighting for your narrative.
Howard C. Stevenson: Doctoral [00:34:00] student's, husband is an amazing artist.
It just- Yes ... just does
Riana Elyse Anderson: it. It's beautiful. All right. Thank you. So we've got six minutes. I'm not gonna let you off the hook. We've gotta practice. We gotta get this practice going. Oh. And we know how important practice is to you, Dr. Stevenson.
Howard C. Stevenson: Oh, yes.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Indeed. So-
Howard C. Stevenson: I love it.
Riana Elyse Anderson: le- let's move to some of these examples.
You've, you've said that the, the- grounding element has to be our own ability to read ourselves, to understand who we are as parents coming into, or as humans first coming into the situation. How do we normally react and respond? And then stepping outside of ourselves, taking a look more meta, how are we responding to our children's capacity or ability or desire to do this?
And then our children have their own thing. So it's all of these dynamics playing around. Okay. We- we've got it. We've now assessed all of that.
H- let's get to what it would look like. So you said, for [00:35:00] example, that you play this game-
Howard C. Stevenson: Uh-huh ...
Riana Elyse Anderson: of, was it drop a line? Was that it?
Howard C. Stevenson: it technically, if you said, if we use one of the examples maybe that I, I've heard a lot in schools where- somebody said, "You just are not the right color and I can't play with you." Mm. Right? Or, you know- Hmm ... I, you, "If you were a little less dark, I could hang out with you." Hmm. I usually don't go out with people who literally are this dark. Whatever. Hmm. or this light. And so part of the issue is then boom, how does that hit?
that'd be the first thing, right? And if I'm angry at that at a nine, let's just say, what words come to mind for me like that, that I'm just simply angry? And, but if someone said to you anything like that, what would, what would trigger in your mind? what would flash for you? And let's say you're in middle school
Riana Elyse Anderson: Oh, snap.
I was gonna say, how old am I? All right.
Howard C. Stevenson: Mm. Oof.
Riana Elyse Anderson: I'm a [00:36:00] smooth 10, Okay. I'm real cute, but I'm also noticing the things like what are, what's happening with my chest, or what's happening... There are all these, developmental elements happening too, so I'm, I'm doing a lot of- mindfulness.
Okay. But the first thing that would comes to my mind, as someone who has absolutely heard things like that about-
being light- is, what did I do? what did I do wrong here? what... Or what could I even do about this? Like, how, how can I help this?
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes, yes.
Riana Elyse Anderson: shame. So if
Howard C. Stevenson: you heard it.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah.
Howard C. Stevenson: So shame. So that would be the first thing that would hit you. On a scale of one to 10, how much shame would you say?
Riana Elyse Anderson: Oh. I'm at a eight. I'm a strong eight with that shame.
Howard C. Stevenson: Eight. And can you feel that shame anywhere in your body, thoughts, feeling, anywhere? At first, your body. If you just said-
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah
Howard C. Stevenson: where in my body do I, I feel it? You mentioned a little bit of it, but.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. the, [00:37:00] definitely my fists are always, balled, and then the shoulders do a little tension. Yeah. So s- somewhere-
Howard C. Stevenson: Yeah ...
Riana Elyse Anderson: torso range where I'm just, doing this.
Howard C. Stevenson: And so you started out describing yourself as a 10.
You're walking in like you are the it to be, and then you, boom, you find yourself shrinking. You went from all that-
EmbraceRace: Yeah ...
Howard C. Stevenson: to basically shoulders dropping, the shame kicking in- in a certain way. So shrinking might be one way to think about it, but shame is a, is a big thing. And then-
if you said, what are my thoughts?
What did I say to myself when I heard that, just too light?
Riana Elyse Anderson: I'm not good enough.
I'm not good enough.
Howard C. Stevenson: Self-talk. Yeah. That's the self-talk coming through. Any images that come to mind, any memory, any, any stuff that shows up in your head?
Riana Elyse Anderson: I'm seeing, the, I'm seeing my family and the range of colors that show up in my family, and I want to know why I'm not one of [00:38:00] those other colors.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes. And let's say you're still in middle school, you flashback to family, but you come back to this person that's- around you in this space, and you're thinking of friendships. Any other images that come to mind, in the school context? What would be- Yeah ...
Riana Elyse Anderson: If I, if I just looked like anybody else here in my classroom, this wouldn't be so hard.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes. That's a very powerful statement, and so many young people I've heard say that. and what's your breathing like when you're thinking about all of this?
Riana Elyse Anderson: I'm not breathing. I'm holding my breath, obviously, this whole time, just... Mm. And very upset.
Howard C. Stevenson: Very upset. And, and if upset got to a 10, what would that look like to the other people?
What would you think people would see in you?
Riana Elyse Anderson: n- okay, I'm also kinda toggling between upset and shame. So I think it, it might show up more teary-eyed than- Mm ... on the [00:39:00] ra- rage end of it, so maybe more, flustered, red cheeks, tears- Yeah ... starting to stroll down my face.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes. So that's a basic, wonderful description that we can help young people come to.
I'm really tracking what's happening to my body, my thoughts, my m- images, and now I can think of a comeback. If not today, maybe in a week, maybe in three weeks I have a comeback. But this is the material that I have that's really about me. It's not about the other person. I'm taking care of me just by taking the time to process that.
Maybe I did that with my best friend. Maybe you had a friend that you could process this with. that's the beginning of the healing. And then the comeback comes as a function of, sharing parts of those w- this is what you've done to me, this is what, this is h- respon- this is how I've been affected by what you've said.
And then the issue would be, the question is what would you [00:40:00] want to have happen for you in that moment?
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. I just, I wanna be a kid. I just wanna be able to play with these people. I want them to invite me and not exclude me.
Howard C. Stevenson: And if your anger... Did you have... The shame, did you have any anger in the process?
Riana Elyse Anderson: I'm sure. Maybe it's shame masking as anger or cosplaying, but it's in there, yeah.
Howard C. Stevenson: Okay. So can you come up with a line or sentences, several sentences you could think about as to describing it, and you're talking to this other middle schooler. Yeah. Just saying what you feel. Not worrying about how they're gonna react at all.
It's only about you.
Riana Elyse Anderson: That's not very nice. You are a buster. You're a hater. I'm cute. You should wanna play with me. I'm really great.
Howard C. Stevenson: Okay. Good. And what does that feel like when you're able to say that? And you had movement. If y'all noticed, Brianna, Dr.- Dr. Anderson was moving. [00:41:00] She was using hands. Her everything was moving, so not just one, multiple things.
That means she is comfortable in her own skin, which is what we want young people to feel, comfortable in your own skin, whichever way you do it. And your family and friends are gonna tell you about your way.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah, yeah. The verve, right? The verve. Verve.
Howard C. Stevenson: Beautiful. Yeah
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah, I, that felt so good to get it off my chest, and especially because my shoulders were here.
Like, when I did that, I felt- like my chest was puffed out. Yeah. And the hands that were this, I was able to, like- channel the energy back to somebody. So that felt great.
Howard C. Stevenson: And you got people in the chat talking about your smile showed up, and, the, the hands and, and the core that someone has brought up.
Thank you, Jory. I reject your rejection of me. That's right. I'm not gonna take one step away from this moment and think that what you said to [00:42:00] me is gonna stay with me. That is very important, even if you just say it to yourself.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. So the, the work that we have just done right now where I was able to calculate my- stress, locate where it is in my body, communicate- Yeah ... the self-talk. I did a quick breathe and exhale, right? And then we got to a place where you said because I have that regulation, because I'm- Yeah ... emotionally and, physiologically regulated, I'm at a place where I can now get back to that- Yeah
verve-y, it girl kind of feeling, right?
Howard C. Stevenson: Absolutely. And if you think about the range of folks and how they might react, they might not as quickly been able to pull it together as you were, but it might take a week, and can I forgive myself for needing a week? Yes. That's right. Can I forgive myself for needing a month before I can come back to somebody?[00:43:00]
three months ago, I really didn't like what you said to me, and I wanna make sure you know that this is exactly how I felt. You have all that possibility. it's dignity, not dehumanization. So great job, Dr. M.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Well, thank you. Thank you. I'll say this one thing, and then I'd love to in- invite Andrew and Melissa back on.
Howard C. Stevenson: Sure.
Riana Elyse Anderson: One thing that I greatly admire about these comebacks is what you have been able to do, which is to assess with young people, and how did that make you feel, and how did that work, right? Because sometimes it can look like, F that person," but, it can be very- Yes. Oh ... not over the top, but it can be expressive in a way that might get me suspended, that might- Yeah
result in a fight or something like that. And maybe sometimes those things are warranted. I'm not saying, to never go that route. But I am- Keep
Howard C. Stevenson: all options open, yes. Yeah. I got you.
Riana Elyse Anderson: But, [00:44:00] when you ask that question, and did it result in the way that you wanted it to, it gives that- Yeah
person that opportunity to, to ask- Was that the, the best solution to this? And if not, let's try another one, and another one, and an- Another one. You can always- Yes ... practice. You can always create more, and it can be in a journal if you don't have someone to talk it out with. Absolutely. So many different ways, right?
Howard C. Stevenson: And you brought up the issue that I actually have choices in this, in this process. And-
Riana Elyse Anderson: That's right ...
Howard C. Stevenson: the range of ideas, the question is, we, we say this, this is... You have to be able to come up with a line that isn't gonna get you in trouble, but also that you don't entirely swallow, and there's a lot in the middle that, that would help with that.
And- That's- This is where you say, "I could ask a friend. I could ask..."
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah.
Howard C. Stevenson: Great.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. Yes, yes. Okay, Andrew and Melissa, we are at Q&A time. Yeah.
EmbraceRace: Hello. That [00:45:00] was, amazing. That was amazing. And beautiful and super, super helpful. Yeah, you saw the comments. so- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't need to... No recasting needed right there.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Oh, oh.
EmbraceRace: Yeah. Watch out. did I use that right? Did I use that right? Sure.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yes.
EmbraceRace: So here's the, one question I wanna put to you, before we go to the, questions that came in. So much actually to talk about, but- Mm ... one, I wanted to raise, especially when you talk about hate and when you talk about under-reaction and overreaction, I wanted to raise the issue of ambiguity, and what we're to make of that.
So as we know, so someone says something, and quite often, if you're the ones directed to, for those of us who have been in that position, too often, you have this question, right? I- w- we're used to being gaslit. It's I know that, but, you, you anticipate, that if friends saw that, some of them may say it's not a big deal.
There's some incentive, right? Yes. So you [00:46:00] think, "Oh, it's, it's not how I understood it," right? Just because it's a bit of unpleasantness. when Jerry uses the N-word with you, that's pretty clear, but often it's not that clear.
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes.
EmbraceRace: I'm wondering, so two things, right? So someone says something, and yeah, there's a reaction in your body, right?
Yes. Which is urging us to, to notice and name and, and measure, and then there's this thought process that happens, right? There's attempt at sense making. And I wonder, is it... Do we need to... Are you s- do we need to worry about sen- are we responding to the feeling in the body regardless of... in which case ambiguity doesn't matter in some sense?
Yes.
Howard C. Stevenson: To answer you, yes.
EmbraceRace: That- I'm just feeling what we feel, and it's tapping into that. Just how do we-
Howard C. Stevenson: This is not about you, would be a better way to think [00:47:00] about it. This is not really about you.
And I, I, I think of it even in the practice, because we're all so nice, and I saw a couple of questions about independent schools, and I, the research I've done about that is people are so nice.
They're just not always kind. And so these moments are literally about are you gonna take care of yourself? And the other, it's not that the other doesn't matter. It doesn't, it doesn't, it's not about the other actually getting confused. You're harmed, and you must take care of that. Now, let's say sometimes the best friendships are built through conflict, right?
You're describing ambiguity as an option for maybe I got it wrong. But that means you're not listening to yourself, and we don't want to suggest children not turn on what they feel, and if they feel and if they made a mistake they could deal with that later. I would rather you, not squelch yourself.
Feel it. and even when the discussion with somebody starts using a curse word, I'm not an advocate of the [00:48:00] curse word because I think it, it literally doesn't get to the actual harm. but sometimes a curse word gets you at least in the conversation of, of maybe I was hurt, and then maybe I can say here's how I was hurt after I said, the curse word.
But the issue is still on that person's experience, and the moment you start to think ambiguity is a strategy you are leaving, leaving yourself in the process. You can be ambiguous later if that, if that's the way I would say.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Yeah. And I would love to just quickly jump in. I know we have a lot of questions, but very quickly it requires us to speak to this historical moment, this time that people are incentivizing us to feel gaslit and to leave this concept of diversity, equity, inclusion, unity, et cetera, like it's- It is imperative to do what Dr.
Stevenson is encouraging us to do right now because there are people who are betting on us not doing it because [00:49:00] we're trying to... They're, they're trying to scrub it out of our current society, right? if we ask the question, "Was anybody else impacted by this?" fewer and fewer people are gonna say yes because we're not able to talk about it.
We can't write about it. We can't do a g- None of these things can show up, so it's required for us to say, "Wait a minute, my body, my mind, something is triggering, telling me this ain't right, and so I have to do something about it."
EmbraceRace: Now can I- Yeah ... just the sort of moment we are in, what's being encouraged, I just think about, all the times we hear, all the calls for civil discourse, for example, which starts to sound to me a lot like, yeah, if you are angry, and certainly if you're at a 10, at a nine or 10, I don't wanna know about it.
Howard C. Stevenson: Absolutely.
EmbraceRace: Yeah. And even at a time where there's obviously a lot to be upset and angry, if we can't be upset about all the things-
Howard C. Stevenson: Yeah ...
EmbraceRace: where, where's the [00:50:00] place for those emotions?
Howard C. Stevenson: Yeah,
EmbraceRace: exactly. Why is that legitimate? Yeah.
Howard C. Stevenson: Conflict resolution can happen, but not in a vacuum and not without conflict.
EmbraceRace: So I wanna get to some of these questions. There are so many. that was so wonderful, so relatable, and just the, we were telling you, Howard, when we got on that we started Embrace Race, as y- as parents of very young kids just because we were like, "Ah, what do we do?" And all those things were coming back, all those emotions about the sort of stuff we'd stuffed down, and now our kids were gonna go through some of that.
So it's... I think it's, it's also just a great time for, parents in particular when they have kids. They're open and vulnerable in a way that really allows them to do this work, which is great. a question from June. would Dr. Stevenson say that this framework is not only conducive to promoting our own health as [00:51:00] self-advocates, but also health promoting to bystanders, onlookers, would-be self-advocates?
Howard C. Stevenson: absolutely. quick story. 2016, Freddie Gray was killed in the back of a police van. I was asked within three days to come to Maryvale All Girls Catholic School outside of Baltimore. Many of the Black and brown girls were from Baltimore. on the television were riots of the school kids in Baltimore, and the girls in that school, the white girls, were very hostile towards Black and brown girls, so much so they were crying in the classroom, couldn't stay in the classroom.
The, the, the deans and leaders asked me to come, and I spent, two and a half hours and got the dean's permission to do comeback lines for two and a half, three hours with not only the Black and brown girls, but their white allies who witnessed these issues. They themselves were traumatized. and the girl-- the Black and brown girls were worried about getting demerits because their parents [00:52:00] had, most of them had parents who were working two and three jobs just to keep them in the school, so they did not wanna violate.
So they couldn't retaliate. But comeback lines allow you, If I, if I can tell you the best comeback lines I've ever seen is Black and brown m-m-middle and upper school girls', comeback lines in person all acted out, as well as their, their allies 'cause the allies were in dilemmas of, "Can I help? What do I say?
What do I do?" But they're witnessing these things as-- And I kinda forgot the question a little bit, but the idea is, is that, What was the question? Let me just ask.
EmbraceRace: Is this, helpful or hel-health inducing, health promoting to bystanders, onlookers would be self-advocacy?
Howard C. Stevenson: Yes. So I was thinking of the, of the, of the, bystanders who literally wanted their own skills.
They needed their own skills to be able to, to put to words what they had witnessed and, struggling with the assertiveness. [00:53:00] The health of everybody in that scenario was, was, was on trial. but they felt so good afterwards, and no demerits were given. Mm. That's-
EmbraceRace: Excellent. Yeah. That was so great. So someone just a note, Rashida says, most of the people who are causing the harm to students l- this kind of harm, of color are the adults in the space.
and, and that's like a very interesting dynamic- That I remember as a kid, adults just feel like they can say anything to kids. Mm. And kids sometimes feel that way, but it seems like the adults are, can be the, you know- Yeah ... the ones who ha- aren't skilled in this way and cause harm and might not know it.
So I wonder, I, I wonder what your responses are to that and how a kid, if you're a kid, how you advise a kid when there's that, dynamic.
Howard C. Stevenson: Dr. Anderson mentioned earlier journaling. we, we, we use four [00:54:00] tasks really. It's, it's journaling, storytelling, debating. And debating, you're debating the ruminations in your own head, the self-talk, right?
You're fighting with, "Oh, they didn't really mean it. I s- they've still been a good friend," whatever those ruminations are. And the last one is role playing. You have to physically get up and act out the, the thing. but the journaling that she mentioned is very key. So you don't have the power to take on other people sometimes, but journaling, keeping a record of it take- means taking your health seriously, taking your pain seriously.
Because we are so nice sometimes, we will forget the traumas that we have gone through until they show up out of nowhere. And so journaling means I kept a record of that person saying that to me. And I don't know if you remember the Black a- accounts that were happening all over the country in independent schools during, the 2020, 2021.
there were graduated Black and brown students [00:55:00] from independent private schools who were on the account saying, "Here's what happened to me when I was in middle school or in, in upper school." And, it was, I think for a lot of people, healing, but it's five years later, 10 years later. you need to be able to keep a record now, so, you're taking your experience seriously.
And you can't fight the p- power differential matters. It does matter, but you can still take care of yourself.
Riana Elyse Anderson: And I'll say very briefly, that's why things l- like the interventions that Dr. Stevenson and I and, and others from the lab have created are critical. They're interlocking pieces, right? So if I'm a young person that can first experience- The shift in my body and in my mind.
Now I know I need to tell somebody about it, and if I'm telling my parent or another adult who can help me to then draft that letter, go to the administrator, do the things [00:56:00] that might be more on par with how they can be dealt with, whether they're a teacher, another friend's parent, et cetera, right? maybe the best outcome won't, quote unquote, me being go- or m- may not be me going up to that person and saying the following things, but maybe my parent doing that will, or maybe that other teacher, or maybe that principal.
So it, it's, it's all interlocking. I have to know that something is wrong in the first place for me to start that chain. It doesn't say that I can't say something to them, but it can unlock me saying something to the right person to have change happen.
EmbraceRace: Um mm-hmm. Absolutely. Bruce asks, "If you have a moment, please remind us what gaslighting is and how it applies here."
Howard C. Stevenson: Andrew?
EmbraceRace: people You know You know You know, people, someone telling you, not to believe the evidence of your own your own evidence, right? The evidence of your own heart, mind, what you've [00:57:00] seen, what you've observed, um um and telling you that you're wrong to feel and think the way you feel, think, and
Howard C. Stevenson: react.
EmbraceRace: certainly in the race space, that happens a Mm-hmm.
Right?
Right Mmhmm Yes ... especially because we tie it so closely to intentionality, right? That we tie impact to intentionality, right? And certainly one lesson of what you're saying is it's, it's not tied, right?
Howard C. Stevenson: Exactly. Yeah. You, you can't... I'm not borrowing your f- view of this in a moment. I'm using my lens, to judge whether I'm harmed or not.
Thank you very much.
EmbraceRace: eh, so we- we've gotten a lot of questions about, and we're gonna share resources, everyone, afterwards in the recording. Just give us a little bit. But about, how to do this at the school level. you know Um, are there seminars, are there workshops, for teachers, coworkers, [00:58:00] administration to be more, trained in, in this, i- in your, in all, all of the things, all, all of the frameworks?
Howard C. Stevenson: I could just shout out The Lion Story. if you go to www.lionstory.org- Exactly the way Dr. Anderson danced it. That's how we, we act like that every day, not just- ... day, not just- ... Monday. where we have trainers who come from very different identity-based spectrums and, that, that help folks navigate their stories so that...
We have an institute next week, so if you go to www.thelionstory, two S's, .org you will see the institute and some of the stuff that we have available. the other option is, the Resilience Empowerment Collaborative, is, um, um also a place where we also do talks and the like. But The Lion Story is a, is a, probably a good, good [00:59:00] option.
And Dr.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Anderson? Likewise. I've been trained by the best, and so I offer those same types of trainings in the New York virtual spaces, so theembraceprogram.com or you can reach out to me directly at my very obnoxiously long Columbia email address, which I'll drop in the chat.
EmbraceRace: And we have... And we have again, we're gonna be sending you all this info, and the so you can so you can This is a beginning for those who are not, haven't been exposed to this We're so, grateful, everyone everyone, who've sent in questions, to everyone who's been in the chat, and of course to our superstar guests. Thank you.
Howard C. Stevenson: Thank Mmhmm Yeah. Thank you.
EmbraceRace: Yeah.
Howard C. Stevenson: Thank
EmbraceRace: you. Thank you.
Thank you. All of this goes without saying, but above all, just thank you for your work and for your dedication- Yeah. Yeah, we need it ... to this and to spreading the You know You know, as we know, often, really good work is left in places where ordinary folks can't access it and from it. [01:00:00] And, clearly both of you are devoting a lot of time to making sure lots of people benefit.
We really appreciate it. Yeah. Yes.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Thank you
EmbraceRace: very much for the opportunity. If we can collaborate on that, we, we
Riana Elyse Anderson: should. Yeah. Yes. We'll work on that. And thank you EmbraceRace for this network. We're so appreciative Mmhmm to the families- and the parents who have been with y'all for a decade plus. So really, really just grateful that these conversations can still
EmbraceRace: EmbraceRacers are the best. Thank you. Bye.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Bye,
EmbraceRace: Sue.
Riana Elyse Anderson: Bye.
EmbraceRace: Thank you, Oprianna.
Howard C. Stevenson: Thank
Riana Elyse Anderson: you. Bye. Still got it. Still got it. Still got it. Still got it. Yeah. As they drop Mmhmm we'll just say goodbye. we'll just say goodbye. Don't mind us. We'll just end it. We're just gonna keep laughing
